MICHAEL RATNER: I have no doubt that the people who wrote the memos, as well as the principal committee people, like Rumsfeld, Tenet, who was head of the CIA, Porter Goss, when all of the torture program occurred, should be criminally investigated.

I think the evidence is clear. It's actually screaming at us from the page. When Dick Cheney says, "I was one of the people who approved waterboarding and I would do it again," you realize why you need prosecution for deterrence. There's no issue.

And I do want to say that Obama has -- while he has not completely precluded prosecution of the architects, he has made statements that make you very, very worried, statements like, "We shouldn't seek retribution," that we shouldn't look backward, that we should look forward, that "I'm stopping torture." Those kinds of statements don't just apply to the agents who did it, but who apply to the upper-level people who were the architects.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Ratner, your use of the word -- you said it may not be a deterrence issue -- do you think it's a punishment issue? In other words, should these people be punished whether or not it's a deterrence for future conduct or not?

MICHAEL RATNER: Look, I'm less concerned about punishment, vengeance, whatever word you want to use, deterrence.

JIM LEHRER: OK.

MICHAEL RATNER: I'm concerned -- punishment. I'm really concerned about deterrence. I just worry very deeply that another president can simply say, "Let's do this again."

And one of the interesting things when we talk about this, you know, two of the people -- and that was one of the disturbing things about Obama's speech -- two of the people who he began the speech with...

JIM LEHRER: You mean today, the speech today at the CIA?

MICHAEL RATNER: Yes, the speech today, Steve Kappes and John Brennan are two people who were at the agency in important roles when the torture program was being carried out by the CIA, and these are people who Obama said he is currently getting advice from. I don't find that reassuring when I think about how is this country going to be torture-free going forward. [my emphasis]